Jamie Oliver

forum: Gardening / Growing

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#71 Mon 22 Nov 10 4:49am

gardenstart

Member
Member since Wed 17 Nov 10

Re: seed saving illegal

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

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#72 Mon 22 Nov 10 8:42am

Ashen

Forum champ
Occupation Why is the Rum always gone???!
From out to lunch
Member since Sat 07 Jan 06

Re: seed saving illegal

Put them in ----   THE COMFY CHAIR!


Only a fool argues with a skunk, a mule or a cook.  { cowboy saying}
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#73 Tue 23 Nov 10 2:50am

The White Rabbit

Forum super champ
From Sydney, Australia
Member since Tue 22 Jun 04

Re: seed saving illegal

gardenstart wrote:

This may shed some light on the" illegal seed-saving" issue, which finds its roots in this driving force behind the global regulation of food and medicine:

"The Codex Alimentarius Commission, Latin for 'food code', is an inter-governmental body that sets guidelines and standards to ensure ‘fair trade practices’ and consumer protection in relation to the global trade of food. It was established for this purpose in 1963 so has more than 40 years’ experience controlling food in an ever-more globalized world."

anh-europe.org/campaigns/codex#Individual

Important issues which Codex affects that impact our ability to manage our health naturally:

Genetically modified (GM) food-Driven by GM interests which argue world food requirements cannot be met without global implementation of GM.

-Terminator’ seeds could be approved for international trade-

-GM food animals are on the way

-‘Dumbing-down’ of organic standards to suit interests of large food producers

-Promotion of large-scale, high-input agriculture and international freight

-Approval of various synthetic chemical additives and ‘processing aids’ in organic foods

-No outright ban on use of irradiation post-production

-Labelling allows use of hidden, non-organic ingredients

-Approval as safe around 300 different food additives (mainly synthetic) including aspartame, BHA, BHT, potassium bromate, tartrazine, etc.

-No consideration given to potential risks associated with long-term exposure to mixtures of additives

-Allows significant residues of over 3,275 different pesticides, including those that are suspected carcinogens or endocrine disruptors, e.g. 2,4-D, atrazine, methyl bromide

-Setting very low maximum daily doses for supplements using scientifically flawed risk assessment methods

-Effectively establishing international borderline between foods and drugs for nutrients, forcing therapeutic nutrients into drug category

-Requirement for clinical trials to substantiate health claims; too expensive for small companies. Therefore provides passport system for big corporations and acts as obstacle to freedom of speech for smaller ones

-Setting of unnecessarily low Nutrient Reference Values which seriously understate requirements for long-term optimum health for given sub-populations, age groups and genders

Try going to the link and doing some research before making comments.  This affects your life very intimately, and is cause for a thinking person's concern.

No, that's all a load of ****.

Check the rumours section of this http://www.codexalimentarius.net/web/faq.jsp

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#74 Tue 23 Nov 10 2:51am

The White Rabbit

Forum super champ
From Sydney, Australia
Member since Tue 22 Jun 04

Re: seed saving illegal

Ashen wrote:

Put them in ----   THE COMFY CHAIR!

yes indeed

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#75 Tue 23 Nov 10 7:35am

cengland

Forum champ
Occupation teacher
From Darwin, Australia
Member since Wed 08 Sep 10

Re: seed saving illegal

Oh dear.  Well this is confusing ...

Like The White Rabbit, I'm from Australia.  The site Gardenstart first quoted extensively from is a European site about fears of what effects the Codex might have in Europe.  Bill S510 is US legislation, and the FDA is an American government agency.  That seems to be a rather mixed-up evidence base, needing careful thought, unpacking and clarification.

This seems to be one of the main points of confusion of the issues amongst people who fear the Codex or who are sharing and promoting fear about it.  The Codex is not a source of legislation and cannot enact legislation in any country or nation.  That is up to individual governments in individual countries and nations.  The Codex can only do what it says it does: develop standards, guidelines and texts that may help individual governments to decide what their individual sets of legislation will be for their own countries. 

If we're talking about quality of research, rather than just quantity, research and forming an argument takes care, and evidence has to be relevant, and cited or quoted.  Mixing up evidence only confuses issues immensely.  It's also important to go direct to the sources one is arguing about, rather than only to quote or cite people (who may merely be citing other people) who don't cite any evidence for what they're saying whatsoever (which I think is a great fault in the case at the site Gardenstart quoted:
anh-europe.org/campaigns/codex#Individual ). 

I haven't read the US Bill S510, and I doubt I'm going to, because it doesn't affect me in Australia.  To read the actual text, it's surprisingly hard to find on the net, given all the hullabaloo that seems to be out there about it, let alone about the Codex.  But anyone who wants to argue about it should read it.  I've found a version, from late 2009:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtex … l=s111-510

If my understanding of 'struck out' is right, a great deal of the bill actually appears to have been ditched by the Senate committee?

Last edited by cengland (Tue 23 Nov 10 9:07am)

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#76 Tue 23 Nov 10 7:41am

The White Rabbit

Forum super champ
From Sydney, Australia
Member since Tue 22 Jun 04

Re: seed saving illegal

We had a few people bring up the codex bogey man lately so I've given up actually pointing out the obvious flaws in the posts of that nature now. So far none of the crack pot information has actually proven anything and until it does no one will be convinced.

S510 is not on the list of the codex website...so unless it's somewhere else then saying something that doesn't exist is a lie is very silly http://www.codexalimentarius.net/web/st … do?lang=en

That quote is odd, to me it sounds like "forget the truth if you don't feel happy with it"...wow...what words to live by.

All governments have something on harmonisation with the codex...doesn't mean it's a bad thing and like all other government documents that use international standards they pick and choose what they want to use.

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#77 Tue 23 Nov 10 9:03am

cengland

Forum champ
Occupation teacher
From Darwin, Australia
Member since Wed 08 Sep 10

Re: seed saving illegal

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#78 Tue 23 Nov 10 6:51pm

wine~o

Forum champ
Occupation Handyman
From Dorset u.k
Member since Tue 21 Oct 08

Re: seed saving illegal

ZZZzzzzzzzzzzz......whoops sorry.....you are boring me now...




(With apologies to the rest of the forum for being "Unwelcoming" to a newbie....) tongue

Last edited by wine~o (Tue 23 Nov 10 6:54pm)

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#79 Tue 23 Nov 10 9:39pm

The White Rabbit

Forum super champ
From Sydney, Australia
Member since Tue 22 Jun 04

Re: seed saving illegal

wino, i don't think they are "new". It's a pretty odd topic to start out on so I think they are probably from one of these groups who try to farm forums for support. THey probably pick on us a bit more because of jamie's name and are maybe hoping that he'll jump on their band wagon.

gardenstart, from my understanding the FDA is a USA government organisation. They are not international. In australia we have a similar group called food standards australia (we also have another called the therapeutic goods administration that takes care of pharmaceuticals....as you can see different countries set up their regulating bodies differently). The FDA just like food standards australia will have documents and legislation that covers food safety. Both as I gather will take from the Codex because the codex is a nice little (or big) collection of worlds best practise in all things food. But they'll only take what they want out of it. Like all similar international standards and recommendations, each country will decide which bits they want and which they don't and then they'll make up their documents and legislation. So if you have a problem with what the FDA is doing then it's an internal USA thing not an international thing.

And another thing, so anyone on the "bad" side of a war must automatically not be allowed to do anything else in their lives? And it's a bit odd, many of the people of adult age around world war II would be very elderly by now, and I imagine not really up to taking over the world one food standard at a time.

I'll take clues as long as they are based in reality.

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#80 Wed 24 Nov 10 12:02am

cengland

Forum champ
Occupation teacher
From Darwin, Australia
Member since Wed 08 Sep 10

Re: seed saving illegal

The White Rabbit wrote:

gardenstart, from my understanding the FDA is a USA government organisation. They are not international. In australia we have a similar group called food standards australia (we also have another called the therapeutic goods administration that takes care of pharmaceuticals....as you can see different countries set up their regulating bodies differently). The FDA just like food standards australia will have documents and legislation that covers food safety. Both as I gather will take from the Codex because the codex is a nice little (or big) collection of worlds best practise in all things food. But they'll only take what they want out of it. Like all similar international standards and recommendations, each country will decide which bits they want and which they don't and then they'll make up their documents and legislation. So if you have a problem with what the FDA is doing then it's an internal USA thing not an international thing.

I have to agree with this. 

I don't even think that the Codex is beyond making mistakes or getting things wrong.  We all, both individually and in collective and corporate bodies, are able to make mistakes and get things wrong.  There are also occasional rogues in organizations, corporate or government; and there are some people who will be overswayed or over-persuaded by lobbying from big business. 

But I do not believe there is a great conspiracy to control all our food and how we or others may grow and provide it.  Indeed, I do not believe there really could ever be such a conspiracy, given all the different national as well as international governments and agencies, not to mention companies and individuals, involved in world food supply. 

The Codex may have influence, and I think it probably should; and there is no fundamental problem with a government harmonizing its policies with the conclusions of a specialist organization that collects and develops its information, and forms its guidance, appropriately.  But Codex does not have control or legislative power in any one country, nor over the whole world.

So yes, we should focus on who is making the legislation in our own country, and deal with that if we have to.  Getting confused over responsibility and conspiracy, and making confusing arguments about it all based on mixed-up evidence and poor-quality citations (or no citations at all), is not going to convince anybody, and is only going to turn people off any campaign one wishes to start, rather than get them to join it.

Gardenstart, I believe your analogy with 'fascism' is offensive and inappropriate.  It is also not accurate.  Fascism historically was a highly intolerant, racist, destructive and violent movement, in its philosophies and its practices.  It achieved popularity through demagogy rather than rationality or science.  It was, moreover, politically, an extreme right-wing movement, whereas in Australia and America at least, and in other countries, we currently have democratically elected left-wing federal governments and leaders, while some have centre or centre-right government.  The word fascism should not be bandied about like this, simply to try to score some kind of rhetorical point.

Here is what the Codex site says about the 'rumour' that Codex (and world food supply) is controlled by war criminals or ex-Nazis:

'R2: Is it true that Codex was created by a former war criminal to control the world food supply?

'No. It is a false claim. You just need to type the words "Codex Alimentarius" in any search engine and you will find lots lots of these rumours about Codex. Usually the people spreading them will give no proof but will ask you to send donations or to sign petitions against Codex.

'Truthful information about Codex is found on Internet (www.codexalimentarius.net) - there is nothing to hide from our side - we are a public institution working in public for the public - we are happy if people want to know more about our work and ask questions. There is an official Codex Contact Point in each member country (www.codexalimentarius.net/web/members.jsp) who will be pleased to answer your questions on Codex'.

At 'FAQs - Rumours', Codex Alimentarius.  Retrieved 24 Nov. 2010 from:
http://www.codexalimentarius.net/web/faq_rum.jsp#R2

Last edited by cengland (Wed 24 Nov 10 12:09am)

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