Jamie Oliver

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#21 Wed 17 Feb 10 3:17pm

whitedog

Forum champ
Occupation striving to be a better human
From america
Member since Sat 09 Feb 08

Re: slaughtered Lamb, head made to resign by hypocrits

How much of that vote was motivated by a speech and/or peer pressure?

I agree that kids need to understand the slaughter for food issue, and it was a good lesson, but the traumatc aspects needed to be expected and dealt with. And if only one of those kids would be seriously traumatised, that's too many.

And I do believe that causing them to become vegetarians a positive thing but the cause needn't be so harsh...though photographs from the slaugher houses should be plenty...

Last edited by whitedog (Wed 17 Feb 10 3:18pm)

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#22 Wed 17 Feb 10 8:26pm

dukegus

Forum champ
Occupation Unemployed,
From Greece
Member since Fri 21 Mar 08

Re: slaughtered Lamb, head made to resign by hypocrits

whitedog wrote:

And if only one of those kids would be seriously traumatised, that's too many.

clap  clap

It's a different thing doing something because you had a traumatic experience and truly knowing all the aspects before deciding to do it conciously. Kids don't need to be traumatised, they need to learn and undestand why!

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#23 Wed 17 Feb 10 9:06pm

abdullahcohn

Forum champ
Occupation Occupied
From My House
Member since Fri 11 Nov 05

Re: slaughtered Lamb, head made to resign by hypocrits

If slaughter is traumatic, then the meat is traumatic.
If children should be shielded from slaughter, they should be shielded from meat.
I would have done the slaughter in front of the kids, the way it is done all over the world.
But this head teacher didn't.
The children did not see the sheep slaughtered. All they saw was the meat they eat was an animal. A cute cuddly, playful animal.
All they saw was the truth. And the truth is too much for the hypocrites who hounded that head teacher out.

People don't want to see the truth, but want what they want to be shielded from to continue.
They want meat and they want slaughter, what they don't want to know is the Animal that was what they eat wasn't some sort of vegetable, but a thinking, playful being able to feel both pleasure and pain.
I can eat meat knowing this, hypocrites can't, so they do what they can to shield themselves from this fact, while continuing to eat meat.

I think sweet lies damage children, not the painful truth.

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#24 Wed 17 Feb 10 9:53pm

dukegus

Forum champ
Occupation Unemployed,
From Greece
Member since Fri 21 Mar 08

Re: slaughtered Lamb, head made to resign by hypocrits

abdullahcohn wrote:

I think sweet lies damage children, not the painful truth.

Lol abdul, your truth is so subjective... Don't you care at all about the teaching quality of your lesson? If the children will really learn or they get traumatised by the experience?? You believe because YOU learned that way it will work on a random kid, who grew in totally different enviroment and with totally different teachings?

Children are treated as individual charachters in modern didactics(teaching?), you need to teach everyone a different way if you want him to truly understands the lesson.

When I was young 9-10 years old and saw a lamb being killed in front of me(with no electic shock just a knife at it's neck) it felt wrong. The lamb was feeling every cut of the knife, every drop of it's blood being spilled. It knew it was about to die and in terrible pain too. I couldn't understand it then, I continued to eat meat (as I do now).
It taught me nothing about respect, about death... I remembered it with this talk, and yes I'll call my parents and ask them why the f@"k they made me watch this as a kind without any previous conversation or anything! Just because their father made them? ... Not didactic at all...

It's like the parents who raise their kids exactly as they were raised by their parents..."I grew up as a good human being, why shouldn't I raise my kid as I was raised?"
Because the result is making a human being 99% like you(most of the time).

No hard feeling, always  smile

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#25 Thu 18 Feb 10 5:53am

dmfootycoach

Member
From Ontario, Canada
Member since Mon 11 Jan 10

Re: slaughtered Lamb, head made to resign by hypocrits

Wow all points are valid. And looking back on it In a sense I do live both. My eldest son who lives with his mother refuses to accept the fact of where the meat comes from when he comes to visit eats strictly veg. Even his minute seeing the animals across the road or seeing deer on his travels in gives him a sense of truth. My daughter on the other hand understands the difficult choices I must make before harvesting a deer as she has witnessed it and I occasionally give her the choice when she's with me wether or not to harvest the animal. Afterwards without critism I ask her why? It allows her to form her own code of ethics as I have formed my own.
I have muchly enjoyed the debate.

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#26 Thu 18 Feb 10 7:30am

Poor Old Al

Member
From Melbourne, Australia
Member since Sun 25 Jun 06

Re: slaughtered Lamb, head made to resign by hypocrits

'Sheep are people too'? If they ran wild, something would kill and eat them. Using the logic of protecting animals as if they were people, what do we do for all the prey animals around the world? have a read of Bourdain's book 'A Cooks Tour.' Perhaps even JO's little European sojourn. I believe Mr. O. has also mentioned people appreciating where our food really comes from. (My memory is NOT overly reliable mind.)
How about those tribal types where kids join the hunters as soon as they are able?
Humane treatment is a great thing, denial is ridiculous.
Billy Connolly has an interesting perspective on vegetarians as well.

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#27 Thu 18 Feb 10 5:01pm

whitedog

Forum champ
Occupation striving to be a better human
From america
Member since Sat 09 Feb 08

Re: slaughtered Lamb, head made to resign by hypocrits

Hunting for food is quite different from raising an animal with the intention of killing it. The wild animal, though we want to romanticise and denegrate his life is at least given the choice whether to be killed or stay away from that gun or arrow, has free choice and the abandon to mate with whom he or she would like and bare their young as they like. No sanitation or heat or quick and easy breakfast none the less no crazy chemicals or sword hanging over their heads every day of their lives. Dmfootycoach, you hunt for venison? That is an art, and those creatures are according to old wisdom colluding with you. And in that vein, so are the farm animals, but for me the dynamic is more difficult to work out, though I did watch a cattle rancher burst into tears when describing the dying dispair of a calf who he couldn't get enough fodder to on the range.

But teaching a child about where their meat comes from is a sacred task and must be approached carefully, thoughfully, and not by the vote of children. But this woman could have involved the parents with a heads up notice, and the death sentence vote must be unanimous.

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#28 Fri 19 Feb 10 4:51am

dmfootycoach

Member
From Ontario, Canada
Member since Mon 11 Jan 10

Re: slaughtered Lamb, head made to resign by hypocrits

Thanks for the compliment and view Whitedog. Yes I hunt venison, turkey, rabbit all strictly bow only. But my views on respecting life have been formed by my time as a peacekeeper witnessing the way people treat life with complete disregard for respect. It is why I live the way I do.
The dynamic of being part of raising an animal and harvesting an animal are one in the same. As Abdullcohn alluded to a life is a life his wording in my opinion was a little askew and harsh but nonetheless correct. I am part of the cattle and pigs lives from birth it is my choice, I choose both from the moment they're born after I've helped in the birthing process. But the same can be said of the deer while I do not help in the birthing process during pre-hunt I am in the field scouting and often see young fawns taking their first steps and often the raw beauty of it takes my breath away, very similar to my awe as I help a pretty young calf escape its confines to enter a cold cruel world. 
I choose to be part of the ending of my "meats" lives. I have witnessed the mass slaughter and it makes my stomach churn. As it would make anybodys stomach heave. All of my animals lead a organic life and I am willing to pay a premium for it (And occasionally accept financial loss) for their sakes and that of my daughter and soon to be born child.
Insofar as these children voting for ending the lambs life without the option of participating in it. Is the troubling part as it still keeps it almost videogame like and fails to teach the consequences of ones actions and choices. As I said her idea was correct but her execution was flawed without complete thought.
You are absolutely correct though teaching children the respect of life and what it brings should be treated as though sacred and delicately. But as Dukegas suggested each child is different as should the appoach to such teachings paticularly involving the harvesting of animals.

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#29 Fri 19 Feb 10 12:51pm

abdullahcohn

Forum champ
Occupation Occupied
From My House
Member since Fri 11 Nov 05

Re: slaughtered Lamb, head made to resign by hypocrits

"Don't you care at all about the teaching quality of your lesson?"

I think that is the key issue here. The person who made the decision, wasn't just an experienced head. She was what is known here as a SuperHead. Superheads are sent to the worst schools, schools which normal heads are not able to fix and which are about to be closed down. Superheads fix them and turn them in to the best schools. Once they have transformed a failing school in to a really good school they hand the school over to a normal head and are transferred to another failing school.

That school was a failing school. She was transferred there to fix it. She did fix it and the school was improving. And then she was forced kicked out, not by the governors(They are elected by the parents) who have the authority to do so, but by a facebook campaign.

So I do care about teaching quality, so do the governors who employed her and wanted her to stay, so do the majority of parents who elected the governors, so do the children themselves who wanted voted for the slaughter. And the local MP, elected by the Local people. So everyone who matters supported the head and what she did, the people who didn't were the Facebook hypocrites, and the facebook hypocrites wan. Because Mob justice always overrides democracy, and armchair experts have more say on children's education than trained professionals, parents, the children themselves and elected officials.

And even though it is none of my business, I respect what your parents did. and believe they are very nice people.

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#30 Sun 11 Apr 10 10:49pm

tammielynn

Member
Member since Sun 11 Apr 10

Re: slaughtered Lamb, head made to resign by hypocrits

If Marcus was an intact ram (male) lamb, they should have gifted him to the woman who campaigned to save him.  I have a small flock of sheep, and a ram lamb that has been bottle fed and raised with no fear for humans will likely become a very dangerous animal.  I say this from experience.  We recently slaughtered our ram that had been like a pet, and wasn't planned for the freezer, because he rammed us on several occasions. If he had gotten me down on the ground he could have killed me.  I used to be a vegetarian, so I do understand that perspective, but now we look to raise some of our own meat...chickens, ducks, sheep because we feel that if we're going to eat it, that's probably the healthiest and most responsible thing to do.  Though this situation with the school children might have been handled a little differently (Perhaps they should have named him "Lamb Chop"), I think it a valuable lesson for children to learn where their food comes from and at what cost.   If we all raised and slaughtered our own meat we would eat a lot healthier product.  We would also eat much less of it. Plucking a chicken and breaking down a lamb for the freezer is back breaking work.

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