forum: FAQ's

Subscribe to forums RSS

#41 Sat 23 Oct 10 6:34pm

lillyrabbit

Member
Occupation chef
From southeast england
Member since Fri 22 Oct 10

Re: Knives in a Nutshell

Knives
i use victorinox, no worry about losing them, easy to sharpen,
sharp enough for me, and very inexpensive

    Likes (0)

#42 Sat 18 Dec 10 7:42pm

Candlejack

Member
Occupation Second year at culinary-school.
From Sweden
Member since Sat 18 Dec 10

Re: Knives in a Nutshell

Well.. i didn't think this thread existed. Didn't find it when i searched. So.. i'll just copy paste a bit of my post in here instead.

These are common questions and there's quite a few people wondering about this, just ending up buying some cheap knives or some Globals, because, they're marketed well.

And also, i've seen the misuse of the word "sharpening", this one bothers me alot. You do not sharpen your knife with a steel, you hone it. When you use your knife, the edge won't be as straight anymore, it will start to be a bit jagged, with the steel - you straighten this out. But you do not sharpen it. It's like putting tape on a leek. You'll make it stop leeking for the moment, but you haven't fixed it. You can only do this to a point.

When you sharpen, you use a sharpener (My favorite is the Spyderco Sharpmaker, affordable and fantastic performance) this removes metal and reshape the edge. Here, you fix it.

And also, Globals are recommended here and there, alot. Here i must say - you have to feel it. It's made for asians which means, small hands. If you have bigger hands they're going to be very uncomfortable. The "Global mark" is widely known as a side-effect of this. A hard layer of skin forming on your hand.

The steel in the Globals aren't that good either. It's just a little above avergade. Cromova 18. It's a very soft steel which means it won't be able to be that sharp and it won't be able to hold the edge as long. Some people prefer this, and hones and sharpens alot. Myself, i prefer my metal hard and sharp.



Which knives do i use? I'm in culinary-school, my second year, this means i haven't gotten that a big a collection yet.

My main knife is the Akifusa i just recently bought. 240mm Gyoto in powdered metallurgical steel. (SRS-15) hardened to around 64 HRC. Right now i have a sharpening angle of around 20-22 degrees, in total (10-11 per side). But as the metal is of this quality and hardness, i'm thinking of going down to 15 degrees, total angle. (7,5 degrees per side.)

This can be comparable to the Globals which comes with a factory angle of 30-40degrees depending on the model.


In list format:

1. Akifusa 240mm Gyoto - 185$ from EpicureanEdge.com made or SRS-15 PM-steel, hardened to 64 hrc.
2. A 16cm Petit-Gyoto from Sagaforms EDGE, made from 1.4116 steel. Nothing out of the ordinary, but it does it's work.

I have two more EDGE-knives, one salmon-knife and one 20cm Semi-Santokul.

Then i have mostly Victorinox and Karlsson Nilsson serrated knives. The Akifusa is the only knife i consider "real" as i just opened my eyes to this hobby.

I sharpen with a Spyderco Sharpmaker.


I'm sorry for the Wall-of-text. I feared that i'd close this tab down more than once, to be honest. But this subject is so wide it can't be kept short.

Last edited by Candlejack (Sat 18 Dec 10 10:07pm)

    Likes (0)

#43 Sat 18 Dec 10 7:54pm

Candlejack

Member
Occupation Second year at culinary-school.
From Sweden
Member since Sat 18 Dec 10

Re: Knives in a Nutshell

And also: The dude saying that the Misono UX-10 is the best knife made.
There is no best knife. It's all about preference. UX-10 is Carbon Steel, which is not for everyone. Carbon steel needs extreme attention. It rusts very easily. That means it's not for everyone.

Some people prefer Carbon, some Stainless. But for a newbie, Carbon is out of the question, leaving them wet for 10 minutes may have undesired effects.

The same thing goes for Ceramic-knives, they get sharp, they keep their edge for a long time - but it can't be sharpened by ordinary sharpeners. And it's really brittle.
It's great for vegetables as it doesn't react with avocado, bananas and the like, though. But not for anything hard.

    Likes (0)

#44 Sat 18 Dec 10 9:04pm

greyhound

Member
Occupation plasterer
From Brisbane
Member since Mon 24 Apr 06

Re: Knives in a Nutshell

candlejack, i beg to differ on a few things.  firstly you dont sharpen a knife on a steel? yes i agree you do hone the edge to take off the burrs but isnt that part of the sharpening process. also you use a sharpener. to me a sharpener is something you stick a pencil in. there are a number of tools can be used to sharpen a knife and not just one is the correct and only way. i have heard of people using a water grinder and guide to reset the edge and it works for those people. personally i use a normal oilstone and dishwashing liquid. its how i was taught and have done it that way for many years. i do agree though that the end process is to hone the edge.

    Likes (0)

#45 Sat 18 Dec 10 10:03pm

Candlejack

Member
Occupation Second year at culinary-school.
From Sweden
Member since Sat 18 Dec 10

Re: Knives in a Nutshell

greyhound wrote:

candlejack, i beg to differ on a few things.  firstly you dont sharpen a knife on a steel? yes i agree you do hone the edge to take off the burrs but isnt that part of the sharpening process. also you use a sharpener. to me a sharpener is something you stick a pencil in. there are a number of tools can be used to sharpen a knife and not just one is the correct and only way. i have heard of people using a water grinder and guide to reset the edge and it works for those people. personally i use a normal oilstone and dishwashing liquid. its how i was taught and have done it that way for many years. i do agree though that the end process is to hone the edge.

Honing and sharpening is two different things entirely. Honing is putting tape on the leak, whilst sharpening is removing the leak.

Sharpening is when you remove metal and create a new edge. Not when you push the metal that has been bent out of shape back.

You do not sharpen using a steel. You may do it with diamondsteels or sapphiresteels though. But that is not really that effective.

And yes, you can sharpen using various methods, waterstones, naturalstones or ready made sharpening systems like the Spyderco. The Spyderco is an easy system which gives you good results without much chance of ruining the edge. (If you aren't totally worthless.)

Waterstones are fun, but for the average user in the kitchen? Nah. It's more of an hobby to sharpen it that way. You won't imagine a single mother, noticing her knives are going a little dull "oh well, time to drag out the ol' waterstones" instead of using a system. Chances are she uses one of those horrible sharpeningsystems which is just a ceramic wheel.
Personally, i prefer the Spyderco, cheaper, same results, faster and cleaner. But i'm quite new to it. 17 years old. I bet i'll get the taste of the stones in a few years.

    Likes (0)

#46 Sat 18 Dec 10 11:30pm

greyhound

Member
Occupation plasterer
From Brisbane
Member since Mon 24 Apr 06

Re: Knives in a Nutshell

the term steel is a generic term these days of a specific tool. as diamond steels are becoming more popular in the outlets. i do stand by my first term of sharpening as an overall procedure rather than a specific part. you have to achieve an edge before you can hone it.
thinking of a triangle, it has 3 points, similar to a knife though it is more elongated, the back of the knife being the other 2 points.
im going by memory here but the cutting edge of a knife firstly has to have an edge approximately 15 degrees and then the leading edge honed at 33 degrees. this is supposedly to achieve the best and most efficient cutting edge that will retain its strength. a steel is used  not so much as pushing the edge back into shape but "grinding" the small imperfections but to a consistent bevel. the reason for a steel is more in line for polishing tiny groove marks left from a stone or wheel, as the grade of stone is like sandpaper and will leave tiny score marks.
though im not a professional but more of a hobbyist, i still find a stone best results as unlike a high speed grinding wheel, it wont heat the metal and change its original temper, thus ruining the strength and making it softer.

    Likes (0)

#47 Sun 19 Dec 10 1:21am

Candlejack

Member
Occupation Second year at culinary-school.
From Sweden
Member since Sat 18 Dec 10

Re: Knives in a Nutshell

greyhound wrote:

the term steel is a generic term these days of a specific tool. as diamond steels are becoming more popular in the outlets. i do stand by my first term of sharpening as an overall procedure rather than a specific part. you have to achieve an edge before you can hone it.
thinking of a triangle, it has 3 points, similar to a knife though it is more elongated, the back of the knife being the other 2 points.
im going by memory here but the cutting edge of a knife firstly has to have an edge approximately 15 degrees and then the leading edge honed at 33 degrees. this is supposedly to achieve the best and most efficient cutting edge that will retain its strength. a steel is used  not so much as pushing the edge back into shape but "grinding" the small imperfections but to a consistent bevel. the reason for a steel is more in line for polishing tiny groove marks left from a stone or wheel, as the grade of stone is like sandpaper and will leave tiny score marks.
though im not a professional but more of a hobbyist, i still find a stone best results as unlike a high speed grinding wheel, it wont heat the metal and change its original temper, thus ruining the strength and making it softer.

The thing i speak about is people saying that they sharpen their knives alot, using a steel. Which is wrong, they hone it. Between every workpass.


This is the sharpener i speak about: epicureanedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=87876

It's a very common sharpener as it gives very much bang for the buck. Can sharpen just about anything. The 64 HRC SRS-15 PM-steel, no problem. It's easy to adjust your angle too.


But once again, everything is about preferences. It's as personal as audio.

    Likes (0)

#48 Sun 19 Dec 10 5:55am

Ashen

Forum champ
Occupation Why is the Rum always gone???!
From out to lunch
Member since Sat 07 Jan 06

Re: Knives in a Nutshell

I have to agree steels are for maintaining an edge not sharpening. the very finest leading edge of the blade can become misshaped over time. honing with the steel brings it back to true. this is why a truely dull blade won't pick up an edge no matter how many times you swipe it on a honing steel.   diamond dust ones aside. I dislike these as they wear out good blades way too fast , taking metal off when not needed.

wikipedia actually has this one right. tongue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honing_steel


A funny thing, the very leading edge of a blade can deform even just sitting and not in use  . This is why ppl generally hone just before use.   There are even special gizmos with magnets in them for shaving  razor blades . the magnet is supposed to keep the edge of the blade from deforming by drawing towards the magnet.   I have never seen anything like it for a kitchen knife though, just those magnetic stripes to hang them up on a wall. I wonder what they do to an edge? nothing good I bet.

Last edited by Ashen (Sun 19 Dec 10 6:02am)


The Universe is alive and self aware. 
Need proof?
Look in a mirror.
    Likes (0)

#49 Tue 08 Feb 11 9:07pm

jimmygster

Member
From Edmonton, Canada
Member since Tue 08 Feb 11

Re: Knives in a Nutshell

Candlejack wrote:

And also: The dude saying that the Misono UX-10 is the best knife made.
There is no best knife. It's all about preference. UX-10 is Carbon Steel, which is not for everyone. Carbon steel needs extreme attention. It rusts very easily. That means it's not for everyone.

Some people prefer Carbon, some Stainless. But for a newbie, Carbon is out of the question, leaving them wet for 10 minutes may have undesired effects. ...

Agree with you regarding Carbon Steel, but Misono UX-10 is not Carbon Steel. Misono does have a carbon steel line, though. Just not UX-10.

Also agree it's about preferences, but my preference is for the Misono UX-10, so, for me, and apparently for "the dude", it's the best knife made.  smile

Last edited by jimmygster (Tue 08 Feb 11 9:08pm)

    Likes (0)

#50 Wed 30 Mar 11 7:43pm

dogdiarr

Member
From USA
Member since Wed 30 Mar 11

Re: Knives in a Nutshell

I saw get a new set of knives.
If properly handled, knives could last for ages.

    Likes (0)

Powered by PunBB